Should the Craig City Council approve an ordinance allowing all-terrain and off-highway vehicles on city streets?

Yes 57 votes

50.89%

No 55 votes

49.11%

Undecided 0 votes

0.00%

112 total votes

Comments

David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

It takes very little to upend and roll these dangerous vehicles, I have witnessed way to many people die right in front of me because of them, some of them I know. Why...is it solely based on "other towns do it"? What one good reason is there to allow this, one common sense reason? What we don't need are kid's tearing up and down the streets in t-shirts and sandals with no helmets on, as they do right now in alleyways, on the Sandrocks and in my neighborhood...unenforced. I realize that there are requirements and laws surrounding this ordinance, but they are not followed or enforced currently, what makes one think they would be if it were legal to ride on the surface streets? You all know as well as I do they won't stay off of Victory and Yampa, they have to cross them somewhere..."Oh, I'll just buzz down Victory a couple blocks, it'll be OK". Not. By the time you report them they are long gone and have the ATV garaged or hidden from sight when the law arrives on scene. I foresee another ensuing tragedy(as if there were not enough already...off road)with this ordinance only designed to appease a select few, the rest of Craig will have to watch out for another object speeding down the already crowded streets. I would encourage the council to table this ordinance and spare the citizens of Craig, and the associated families affected, from any more tragedy.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

Really David.... YOU have seen more than one die as a result of an atv accident? I've been ridding since 1968 and haven't seen one fatality. I have seen a lot people die as a result of drinking, Not herd of it but SEEN it. maybe we should start with a county wide ban of booze? One thing all you people wanting to ride on the highway should bare in mind though.... atvs won't kill riders as much as cars suv's and trucks will! Ask anyone that has a motorcycle. I've had people look me right in the eye and still pull out from a stop sign accross my lane and also change lanes with out looking back.

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lacey 4 years, 10 months ago

David, Several good reasons 1. Some people enjoy an alternate mode of travel once in a while. Possibly you don't, does that mean we shouldn't? 2. Economics, since I own one, I would much rather start it up and ride it 1 mile to work rather than start my 3/4 ton 4x4 truck, when feasable! Less wear on my $45,000 vehicle, less fuel used and more room in the parking lot at work for the other employees. 3. If even 1/2 of the atv owners in Craig chose to use them in the summer, it could cut down on a lot of traffic in Craig. This would make it easier for others like yourself to get around in your chosen mode of transportation! 4. If you read the ordanance, Yampa and Victory Way are not designated travel routes, therefore not legal to travel on. I agree, you will have those that may try it but when stopped and issued a ticket and a fine, it probably won't happen twice. By the way, it is already legal to cross a State Highway anywhere you come to one. If you cross at a 90 degree angle, you can do it all day long if you like!

I can go on and on but if you just don't want to agree, you never will. The reason we use "other towns" is because the idea is so foreign to people in Craig. It has always been taboo in Craig. If you bring up the idea and then show people that it IS being done in other parts of the civilized world, the people with an open mind are willing to take a look at the issue and then have an educated opinion. They may still disagree but at least they have seen that it works in "other places".

Consider this, you have a preconcieved notion of how unsafe and deadly these atv's are, but if even a small % of the overall numbers of atv enthusiests were kill on a regular basis, don't you think our Government would be taking a lot more heavy handed action against them. It did with 3 wheelers, because there was a legitimate problem. Millions of people enjoy atv's everyday and we are not all dying because of them. Admittedly, you can't stop stupid, but why should responsible riders be denied?

These atv's and uhv's are as big and as visable,if not more so, than many of the legal motorcycles that are out there on our streets today. Would you have us take all of the motorcycles off of the Nations roadways? Heaven forbid you should have to drive your vehicle with both eyes open! How do you manage to miss all of the bicyclists and pedestrians that you have to share the streets with now???

In closing, my condolences for your having to wittness all of those terrible deaths before your very eyes. I would suggest choosing roads less traveled, or better yet, when trying to emphasize a point, you might try sounding a little more credible

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lacey 4 years, 10 months ago

David, One more thing. How about the fella with the "smart Car" that is driving around Craig now, I don't have one and you probably don't either. Should we get together and try to keep him off of the streets because he is different??? Oh, I know they use them in other towns, but I'm not sure about our town. What do you think?

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kp81625 4 years, 10 months ago

I agree with David. ATV's and snow mobiles are meant to be "off road" vehicles. Why should we allow them to permeate our streets. At least with motorcycles, you have to have a special license to drive one. With 4-wheelers and snow machines, that is not a requirement but a "suggestion". Maybe the law should be changed to make driving one of these machines something you need a license for and then I would consider changing my mind.

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lacey 4 years, 10 months ago

why do you think a piece of paper in your pocket will make this activity safer? If you leave your drivers license at home, do you forget how to drive safely?

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

MntMaker, I work in a hospital, I worked Respiratory in and out of the ER for 10 years and have been in the O.R. for the other 8, when on call I am part of the trauma team that is assembled when needed. I personally knew a man who was killed recently, a member of our medical team here at TMH, and have had three friends injured severely because of them, and they are(or were) responsible riders. That example does not even scratch the surface. That enough for you? If ATV laws and ordinances were enforced NOW, I might have a different opinion, but they aren't, so I don't...death and disability are not the only reasons. I make my opinion based on what I see and experience which is why I will never support an ordinance like this, sorry if that is not "credible' enough.

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stoffle 4 years, 10 months ago

I think the ordinance will be a good decision for the town of Craig. I for one would like to ride my atv to the store instead of driving a full size vechicle. Not only will it save on fuel, but it will help the enviroment. A death is very tragic and I am sure David Moore does see them in the ER but really how many of those deaths could have maybe been prevented? Riding on private property without permission is not responsible, yet we have adults/teens ride the sandrock and the hills by the high school without permission. I suggest you get a copy of the ordinance and see what has been purposed. An avt/utv driver must have a valid driver license carry insurance and obey all the traffic laws as does any motor vechicle driver.

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trbigfoot 4 years, 10 months ago

I also belive the ordinance to permite the use of ATV's in the City of Craig is a good idea, they are no more inclined to accident's than any other form of transportation. It would be good to be able to use these machines to get around it would save gas and help with parking. I have been useing ATV's for a long time and all accident's I have seen were the resulte improper use, no amount of rules or inforecment can prevent this. Other towns and city's have done this with good resuilt's, and it even could help our econemy.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

David I had 3 good friends die within 3 years on motorcycle, one (to be best man at out wedding) which I personally scrapped up off the pavement. None were riding responsably. Any motor or wheeled (scateboard bicycle even snow board) device can be faital if not used as intended. Also the comment above about the irresponsable riding on and too the Sandrocks is proof that no matter what the laws are, some feel its neseccary to ruin and give anyones sport a bad name.

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valleylocal 4 years, 10 months ago

Most likely the ordinance will not be passed. Insurance companies will not cover ATV's on streets only for 'off road' use (ask your local insurance agent). The State of Colorado doesn't consider ATV's as motorized vehicles so local authorities who write violation tickets are only allowed to issue a fine and no points.

Its an additional safety issue to our streets; plus ATV tires aren't designed for asphalt or concrete, so they won't have the grip for stopping and cornering as they do for off road use.

One question for those who want to use thier ATV to get groceries...where do you put those sacks? Can't wait to see a bag tear and your goods go flying all across the road.

Internet research shows the average MPG for ATV's is 13.5 to 14. Wow, that will save a lot of gas.

If helmets are a requirement, will those in favor of this, still be in favor for it? Also, how will authorities know if an operator with a helmet is of age to operate a motor vehicle. I think the authorities already have enough to patrol and control. I just figured it out, i'm game for the city to raise taxes for additional men/woman power on the force.

NO to ATV's...what a silly idea.

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lacey 4 years, 10 months ago

valleylocal, Not all of your info is correct. There are several insurance companies that do offer coverage. The local authorities are working on a system to issue fines and hopefully acess points with. At the speeds we are talking about here, the tires that are on most atv's will preform just fine. They will also have plenty of traction. You may not be able to haul a full load of groceries on one but you can sure run down and pick up a few things. All of the enviromentalists are asking us to be a more gentle public. It may not save huge amounts of fuel but it depends on what your primary vehicle is also. It could help reduce our carbon footprint if you wanted to go that far. I would like to think that 1 cylinder is better than 8. Helmets are not required in Colorado at 75mph on the interstate why would we require them here. If anyone wants to wear one, they are encouraged to do so.

"silly" is trashing an idea that other people have just because it doesn't suit you. Why not give it a chance, it seems to be working fine in several states around the country. Just because it is different than what we are used to, is it bad?

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stoffle 4 years, 10 months ago

If you own a OHV- Ranger, Razor,Prowler,Big Red, Rhino or a Kawasaki Mule you will be able to haul more than enough groceries for a family of 6. If you own a ATV I am sure one will purchase an accessory bag that will store the food in a safe contained manner. All these machines are safety equiped with seatbelts, disc brakes, power steering, roll bars, safety nets. ect.

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valleylocal 4 years, 10 months ago

I have done some homework on this issue, so please name those insurance companies because I've called 4 local agencies and thier response was a policy wouldn't be issued because ATV insurance policies are designed for 'off road' use and not public road systems.

I am not completely opposed to the idea and definitely not because "it is different than what we are used to"; I've have more cons then pros. Sorry.

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valleylocal 4 years, 10 months ago

Stoffle, I completely agree. I like the idea of OHVs on our streets a lot more then ATVs. They are more visible and have more safety features.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

Thank you kp81625 and valleylocal, nice to have some support.

MntMaker, I am sorry about your friends, no one should die needlessly and their friends should not have to witness such a tragedy. Motorcycles have been allowed on streets and roads for a very long time, ATV's on surface streets is something new, at least to Craig, so I don't view it as the same thing. My main point is that it ADDS another vehicle on streets already used by personal cars, trucks, semi's, school buses, ambulances, fire trucks, police cars, street sweepers, mopeds, scooters, motorcycles, kids on bikes/skateboards/blades(yes, they are out in the street), adults on bikes, pedestrians, throw in dogs, cats, deer, cows, horses, squirrels...why add ANOTHER hazard to look out for in an already crowded environment? My outlook can be changed when it makes good common sense. I'm still listening and waiting for that good common sense reason to allow this.

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Ray Cartwright 4 years, 10 months ago

So let us discuss some of the posting comments "If ATV laws and ordinances were enforced NOW" what if all laws and ordinances were enforced NOW. Would we no longer have school shootings?..... "obey all the traffic laws as does any motor vechicle driver" when was the last time you saw someone on a bicycle ride through a stop sign? I have seen several and once or twice right in front of a cpd or sherriff deputy and the didn't give them a ticket. I know that for awhile they would be really strict on ATV's but after that we could get lax and not have to stop at the required interscections and just blow through them like a bicycle

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Tom Soos 4 years, 10 months ago

What ever happened to personal freedom and responsibility? If you do not want to ride your ATV in town then don’t. But why should you have the right to stop others.

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grannyrett 4 years, 10 months ago

valleylocal-Progressive insures ATV's for street use-I have mine insured with them. I also have rear view mirrors, a windshield, license plate holder and light, and seatbelts. I have a registration and plate like a motorcycle plate. I'm as safe on my tyrex as I would be on a motorcycle. When I come home to Colorado, I leave the ATV in Arizona because it isn't legal to ride them on streets. Same rules and regulations as any licensed driver. Have to have drivers license and insurance to ride on the streets in Arizona. It's safer than a moped-for sure.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

dented fender, We are talking about a motorized vehicle here, I think it would be quite a bit different (just my opinion) than someone on a bicycle. Do you think you would risk blowing through that stop sign on a Harley or a Goldwing in front of CPD or a Deputy. Ultimately, the driver of the atv is at more risk of injury in an accident. One would think that self preservation would come into play here and you would be even less apt to run the stop sign than you would in an automobile. Even if they can't acess points against your license right away, I would think that a good stiff fine would cause you to reconsider the idea of ignoring a sign. Most people should consider the chances of death by 6,000lbs of steel as the #1 reason to not run the sign. How about we give the drivers in our community a little credit here, both automobile drivers and possible atv riders. We share the road with many different modes of transportation everyday and for the most part, we all get along real well in Craig.

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westslopeguy 4 years, 10 months ago

You know, I'm not an off-road vehicle or all terrain vehicle fan or opponent. Personally I think they'd be less dangerous than most irresponsible bicycle riders, but I digress. My real thoughts-based on what I've read in other "hot topics" in the CDP, and I realize this is a bit off topic, are that if ORVs or ATVs are legislatively or constitutionally allowed on public thoroughfares, then the CPD or Craig's City Council, or the voting populace of Craig will opt to ban such activity.

My vote is - like with all other constitutionally allowed, or legislatively permitted activities - SECEDE!!

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

Grannyrett, You would want to double check this with Chief Vannetta or Sherrif Jantz but from what I understand, if your Tyrex is a licensed motor vehicle in Arizona, that plate will be honored on the streets of Craig right now. The same thing with someone from Rawlins Wyo or ST. George UT. If it is licensed in another state, It is legal here. Again, double check this info with authoraties. There could also be a time limit involved. I know that when you move here from another state you are given a certain amount of time to reregister your vehicle with a Colorado registration. Good luck and hopefully you can enjoy your Tyrex in Craig next summer.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To lacey: The reason valleylocal is calling this silly is because that is what it is. This is about people that want to play and have thier fun time games on the city streets. The city streets are no place for your baby games and fun time. They are the place for the business of driving, nothing else. These machines were designed to be used as a tool for farmers and ranchers to tend thier stock and fields. They were adopted by hunters and other enthusiasts for use in the woods and on certain trails. There are far too many things too watch for around the city of Craig as it is. People that never look before crossing the street, that never signal before a turn, that turn from the wrong lanes, that ride bikes at night with no lights, that walk on the streets when a sidewalk is right next to them, that just plain have no idea what they are doing when driving. Now you think we should be forced to watch out for another obstacle in the road. This is indeed SILLY.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

Wow als362, something we can actually agree on. I do not own an ATV and never will, I have told my daughter that she will be grounded forever if I catch her on one or have a report from a neighbor that she was riding/driving one. I am NOT against anyone owning one and am NOT trying to stop anyone from riding them, I AM against them being used on city surface streets where they have no business and where the accident rate would be much higher than out in the forest or in the field...where they DO belong. I am still waiting for that common sense reason to allow this.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

Hello David; You will be waiting a long time. There is no common sense reason to allow these things on any public roadway.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

Come on guys, you are being about as closed minded as anyone can get. We are not wanting fun and games in the street, just an alternate mode of transportation once in a while. Stop and think about it. If I am out there one my atv, my full size pickup is setting at home. More room on the road for everyone. If this were truly such a terrible idea, why are more and more states adopting it? Most of the time when things are not working, the authorities put an end to it. This has been a successful program in many states and seems to be growing every year. Both Michigan and Utah signed on last year. I disagree with those of you that have such a problem with the rest of us that use Craigs streets. Even without this ordanance, you seem to have an attitude about everybody else that you have to share the road with. When I am driving, I don't see every bicycilist or pedestrian as an adversary, I just see them as someone else using the street as they see fit, using the mode of transportation that they choose. They are not my enemies, just someone I need to share with!

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

I do not have "attitude" about sharing the road, as an avid mountain biker I can be found riding the roads, streets and what little trail we have that is ride-able and as a driver I give room to others using the system. As an ATV driver, you would not be an "enemy", rather an ADDITION to an already crowded road system. If this ordinance is passed, I will give you room as well, I would have no choice in the matter and I'm not losing everything over hitting one of you because of some ill perceived "attitude". As far as your big truck sitting in the driveway...wait until some distracted teenager creams you on your little ATV, that big truck might have spared you injury...or worse. I'd feel much safer encased in steel with crush space to soften the collision. We just don't need MORE vehicles on the road already crowded with dozens of other things that we are already having to watch out for, I listed a few in a post above. Why is this so hard to understand? Still no common sense answer to why this should be legalized, leaving a safer vehicle in the driveway to ride an unsafe one(which was not designed for street use) is not common sense, it is not necessarily your riding ability and habits I am concerned about...it's the other guy. I'll keep checking back for that reason.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

David, I appriciate the concern for our saftey but I would like you to consider this. There are people riding motercycles in every town in the US. As licensed drivers and adults of all ages, we understand the risks. Rest asssured that as an atv rider on the street, I will be driving as defensively as I can. I won't say accidents won't happen, but I will, as others will I'm sure, do our best to avoid them. Again, we are talking about posted speed limits here, 25mph, were not talking high speeds or City traffic. One last thing, ATV...All Terrain Vehicle.... All means all, not just what you deem apropriate. From a parking lot to a mountain trail, all means all.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

For the last time, if people used ATV's appropriately, I would have no concern, the majority of people I see riding them are going balls out, no helmet, no regard for their safety or the safety of those around them. There are a lot of people in our neighborhood who have them and they are complete idiots when riding them...no helmet, flip-flops, t-shirt doing 40mph down a residential street with a rider clinging on for dear life. What makes anyone think an ordinance making it legal to ride them will change that behavior? It won't. Those wanting to "go to the store" or work are a small minority compared to the fools who ride like complete maniacs on them, those are the ones who ruin it for everyone and they are the ones who will kill or maim someone. It is because of them that I am against this. Any other vehicle ALREADY on the road DOES NOT COUNT, they have been there for decades and therefore are exempt from this discussion. Nobody can come up with a reasonable, common sense answer to allow this, therefore I am against this and that is where I will stand, end of my portion of this discussion. 750 Hospital Loop Road, just in case you need us. We'll keep the light on.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

I believe this ATV business will work about the same way as the jet skis at Elkhead. As long as the State Parks people are close by the jet ski riders act in a fairly reasonable manner. As soon as the State parks Rangers are gone, the jet ski riders suddenly lose any sense they once had. Swerving in and out of boat traffic, making wild spins and turns directly in front of an oncoming boat. And just plain breaking the laws that they know are in effect. While a very few ATV riders might abide by the laws all the time most will act like the crazy jet ski people when there is no one around to give them a ticket.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To bwhite: Just because someone decided to name something all terrain, does not mean they have any business being in some places. By your definition you intend to drive your ATV up and down the aisles at Safeway, after all that is terrain. These machines are meant for used in the cow pasture and in the forest, they were never designed to be used on city streets. They have no business being on city streets.

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stoffle 4 years, 10 months ago

To asl362:

Are you kidding me, who in their right mind would assume you would ride an atv up and down an aisles of a grocery store or any business. bwhite was giving you an example and not once did Safeway aisles come up.

Another point: ATV/OHV were not made just for the farmer/rancher. Suzuki quad was the first four-wheeler built that was designed to replace the 3-wheeler for safety reasons. Although the rancher and farmer use ATV's they also are used for many other types of work. ATV/OHV's are being used by all goverment enities for different purposes. So why is it any different for a citizen of Craig to want to use their ATV for personal use on City streets? Once again, we are talking about a 25mph speed limit and a legal licensed driver. If the driver is speeding they get fined, if they break the law they suffer the conquences like any other licensed driver would. If a person wants to ride in shorts, flip flops and no helmet so be it, this is America. This is their choice, not a good decision, but their choice. When this ordinance is passed, law enforcement will have rules, regulations and fines that they can enforce by the guidelines set forth in the ordinance. I for one am in favor of this ordinance hoping it will pass the city and then move on to the county road ways.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

Good one Stoffey. Don't sound like they like Safeway either? Did some research other day... couldn't find stats for both Bicycle and atv for a year later than 2004, but, seems like there were roughly around 740 bicycle and 760 atv deaths that year. Yet our goverment deemed it was ok to give 4 foot of all highways in Colorado to the pedal pushers. No slam on the bikers, as I used to put on 1500 miles a year on mine. Didn't read details ok bikers, but atv deaths were people doing things cautioned not to do bye the manufactures and a good many of those were riders that were leagaly too young to be riding the atv they were riding. To me.... don't matter what a person does they can die doing it. The key (to me) is education and respect for what ever your using or doing.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

740 bicycle accidents, were they all on the road, or were some of them off road? 760 ATV accidents, same question? Please provide your source so I can read it. Thank you.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

Couldn't find the 2004 stats on bicycles but did find a newer one. All stat sights I've used were from goverment .org sights. I tried to look for unbiased surveys. http://www.bhsi.org/stats.htm is the new bicycle sight I found and http://www.atvsafety.gov/stats.html is the origional atv sight I found. Check out the break down by age groups for the bikes. Can't say they weren't old enough to know better. Don 't know if people in this town are aware of the fact the bicyclers are held to the same rules and regulations as motorvehicles, and I have seen them get ticketed for running stop signs and riding at night without a light.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

MtnMaker is correct. The people that ride bicycles here seldom obey the law, and are never held to obey them. This will be the same for atv's. they will seldom obey the laws they want for themselves now and they will seldom be caught or made to obey them. They will become an out of control group that will cause havoc on the streets. While they may start out staying well within the law, that will soon change as they will start to ride on streets where thay are not supposed to, and the speed limits put on them will soon, not be fast enough. This is one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard of. If the city council allows this, it proves they do not care about the safety of the people that live here.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

The draft ordinance says a max. of 35mph. Where, other than on Victory between city market and Finley lane is the speed limit 35mph?

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

I just don't get it. Never have I seen a community with people so adament on raining on someone else's paraide. If ya don't even have a atv what makes you think anyone cares what you think? Most of the negative comments here are nothing more than what if's and they could do this or that. Did ya ever thnk that people don't even need a reason to ride? Whats wrong with just doing something for the fun of it? But then fun seems to be just whats on YOUR agend and it don't matter what anyone else enjoys doing. Bye the way, its been ages since I've had an atv, just tired of all the belly aching andput downs when someone trys to do something new or differant int his town.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

Hello MtnMaker: There is nothing wrong with doing something just for the fun of it. But the streets, roads and highways are not a place for fun. Out if the woods, around Sandwash, or on a back trail, these are the places for fun. The streets are for the business of driving and avoiding accidents. Which, while these atv's are out having thier fun play time on the streets, is just what will happen I don't think that anyone who thinks this law will cause accidents is proposing a "what if" or "could be". I think they are facts soon to be proven if the city council passes this stupidity.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

Ha ha... that does it. I'm buyin a atv just so I can ride it no were but in city limets.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

David Moore To answer your question on 35mph? Most streets in Craig are indeed posted at 25mph, which we would be expected to honor, same as any motor vehicle. The deal with 35mph is 1st St between St. Hwy13 and Ranney St. is actually posted at 45mph for a short distance. The Craig PD felt that they were not comfortable with 45mph. so they decided to limit it to 35. I am not sure but I can't think of anymore streets in town that are posted over 25mph. I realize that you are not going to change your stand on this issue but if you have anymore legitamate questions like your last one, I will be more than happy to try and explain how and why if possible. Honest debate never hurts anything. It even brings issues around to where both sides can at least have positive input. I'm not asking you to purchase your own atv and join us, just give this idea a chance to work. You can't truly believe that all of the atv owners in Craig are so irresponsible that this will be an out of control activity? One other thing, myself and the others involved with this ordanance all fit between the ages of 30 to 65. I'm not saying the younger crowd won't enjoy this privilage also, but so far, you've been argueing with a middle aged crowd in Craig.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To bwhite: Yes I can believe that all the atv owners in Craig will abuse the law. I think they will find the places were they feel they can "get away with it" and they will speed, go in places where they are not supposed to and act in an Irresponsible manner. It will take some time for this to happen, maybe a few months, maybe a year, but happen it will. And when the parents are not around, the unlicensed kids will be riding them on the streets. It must be OK, Dad does it, and after all I am just going down the street. Yes, just going down the street to get in an accident. I have seen these types of things before, and no one ever gets enough, then they start to do things that they know they are not supposed to do, but hey, "no one is around, I will just do it this once". Right. Don't try to snow me pal, this is an accident waiting to happen, I just hope it doesn't happen to me.

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redneck 4 years, 10 months ago

I think that this ordinance is a good thing because I personally would like to ride my four wheeler in town so i don't have to start up my truck. it has to be done responsibly though. for example all street laws will have to be followed. I say test it out and see if people can do this responsibly and if not take it away. I do believe that people should have a drivers license to be eligible to operate though. the high school parking lot would sure be a lot emptier if we were to start to allow this.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

Mr. White, Thank you for your respectful replies to my questions, I do appreciate civil conversation and respectful behavior, my apologies if I seem out of line. I get over passionate about subjects I view as dangerous without considering the bigger picture, I see things differently than your average citizen by living it everyday. I believe you and your friends are responsible riders, I do not believe that others are, responsibility is a shrinking percentage in this country and it is my opinion that bad things are to come because of this. Safety of the rest of the community who do not ride ATV's (but will have to be on the lookout for them) is not being considered in this deal and the uneducated and uncaring (the majority) are the ones that will make it miserable and dangerous. My street is a prime example, I was not stretching the truth about how people act on ATV's, that is how I base my feelings along with the experiences over the last 22 years. I am terrified some idiot is going to plow over my daughter while out "having fun" on a city street with their toy. God forbid that happens as I will for the first time be incarcerated in prison for the rest of my life, eye for an eye. Maybe if there were a helmet law, mandatory training, an increase in the age from 16 to 18, lower speed limits, daytime operation only, requirement of street tires, point deduction as well as very stiff fines for the idiots...I might loosen my grip on this, however wishful thinking is all that is, a utopian thought. Do you know Colorado is one of 4 states without a mandatory helmet law (meaning the other 46 have one), talk about living in the stone ages. However this all pans out, remember this: If any ATV driver injuries anyone in my family, not only should you have good insurance, but you better get a good lawyer as well...that is not a threat, that is reality. Don't tell me you are ready to lose it all over "having fun"?

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

David Moore, I have also had the privilage of raising a child, along with many others associated with this debate. Not one of us want to see even the first person get hurt, child or adult. The fact is, none of us are promoting any reckless behavior, nor will we condone it. Unfortunatly, illeagle use of atv's is already occurring in our town, we can't do anything about that. We are asking for the ability to be able to operate these atv's in a safe and responsible manner. The PD will still do all that they can to curb the misuses that occur. Possibly, with the passing of an ordanance, the fines and penalties for misuse could be acessed with a little more bite. Example: If presently, I can only be issued a ticket for operating an unlicensed vehicle on the streets...$25.00, possibly in the future I could be issued the same ticket (say speeding) but the ordanance allows the PD to write the citation for ....$100.00? It won't stop all problems but it would sure be more of a deterant than what they are able to write a citation for now! I know it is thinking outside of the box, but sometimes change can have a positive effect, and if the responsible, safe community has a dog in the fight, it might help the PD subdue a portion of the problems that you are concerned about. Anything is possible!

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

Mtnmaker, Thank you for the information and the websites, I checked them out. The issue at hand is ATV's, not bicycles. By the looks of it, ATV injuries from 1999 to 2007 almost doubled, 82,000 in 1999...150,900 in 2007, my math tells me that is at least a 90% increase in the injuries caused by ATV's since 1999, but then again I was never very good at math. The death rate follows the same path, 398 in 1999, 750 in 2007, again, nearly double. This report is two years old, would be interesting to see the current stats...I don't feel very encouraged though by the staggering increase within 8 years alone. Why is that not enough proof to make anyone realize just how dangerous these vehicles are? I am stumped by the lack of understanding. No one is "raining on your parade" Mntmaker, if you choose to be uncivil about the other side of an issue important to people, I am through communicating with you. Redneck, gas is not that expensive(and no, I'm not rich either), not wanting to fire up the truck is a poor excuse to ADD another vehicle on an already crowded infrastructure. I do like some of your thinking regarding testing and whatnot, but it is the high schooler's who will assuredly act like fools, just like they do in their cars right now. You cannot tell me that high school kids are responsible drivers, 1 out of 10 MAYBE. What really needs to happen first before I step off of this is for Colorado to come into the real world and repeal the helmet law(or lack thereof), that was the single dumbest decision ever made. Fortunately, someone is working on that and I hope to see some change very soon, at least someone is using their head...so to speak. That would be a good start, then we could EASE into allowing other off-road vehicles on-road, the laws and requirements need some serious going over.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

Mr. White, it is not you that I am worried about, I believe you and your group want this to work and will do the right things to make it happen. It is the lawless offenders who do not care that will mow someone over and then run from the scene, or the 16 year old's who barely know the rules of the road in a car, the drunks who think it is an easier way to get home from the bar, it is the ones who just do not give a fly one way or another about the law. As far as penalties go, I'd say a $1000 fine and a 2-4 point deduction from your DL would be a good start, but I doubt even that will be enough of a deterrent. Think about those who do meth, for example. The threat of losing everything they own and everyone they love, going to prison/rehab, health problems and hefty fines still does not deter them from committing a crime and using/dealing their poison that they fully well know is just that...poison. That is the lawlessness I am referring to and those are the ones that will ruin it for people like you that are responsible...it's the American way. Maybe, and I don't really know..I'm guessing here, that if this ordinance were treated like say...the CCW process, I would think differently. They just don't issue them to anyone with a gun, they should not issue a permit to anyone with an ATV. Do you have an idea of what parameters of inspection they will look at? There are a couple killer(and I mean deadly)ATV's out on the market right now, are they going to give them the OK? Some more definition of the process might make it easier to swallow, but...with all due respect sir, I'm with als362, I am not convinced.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

after riding motorcycles on craig streets since 1977 I'll tell ou one thing from experance. the rider is a lot more aware of ther e surroundings than some one driving a Cage. thats a lot a year riding around Craig in an open enviroment and what it taught me is you never trust some one in a car.You are seeing more and notice a lot more details. Not only do you see the kids and animals between parked cars but you notice one's even thnking about entering the road. Try comparing the number of people hit in Craig by motorcycle and by cars and trucks. Don't think I know of one case were a motorcycle hit a pederstian. In past experance off road on atv I've found your a lot more aware there also, or better be. Even a coyote, wet spot or stick on the road will ruin your day. True the number of deaths for atv has doubled... but so has the # of atvs. And once again these are off road deaths, not highway, were you are bound to laws and are penalized for misuse. I will agree with you on a lot of issues David including the issue of Points Fines and Insurance. But to say there are to be extra stipulations just because its an atv is prejudice. I even beleve taking liecenes test like a motorcycle should be implemented. Same with the recomindation of a windsheild. And whats the deal the the tires? Atv tires are a softer material and grab the road twice what a car tire will. I've rejucted certain brands of tires on a road bike because it it me into a side drift 15 miles an hour under a softer tire. Problem is they wear down quicker than road tires so there not money smart to ride on the road, a small price to pay for safety. It isn't un civil to fight for freedon David. If you wish to give all yours up have at it. I'll fight for mine.

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xrsareus 4 years, 10 months ago

Well Dave you got part of the story correct, your right there are only 4 states that are totally helmet law free. But what about the rest of the story. Did you forget it? You didn’t do that on purpose, Did you Dave????

Of the fifty states, only 4 are 100% helmet law free! :

Colorado, Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire You can click on each or any of these states and read how they obtained and maintain their freedom.

Of the other 46 states, 20 have full helmet laws for all motorcycle riders:

Alabama, California, Georgia, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Oregon, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington and West Virginia. You can click on each or any of these states and read the statute, the regulation defining what constitutes a "safety helmet" and our suggestions about how to best attack the statute in court.

19 States have helmet laws that exempt adult riders, riders over the age of majority -- 18 years old and over. Those states are:

Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin and Wyoming. You can click on each or any of these states and read the statute, the regulation defining what constitutes and "safety helmet" and our suggestions about how to best attack the statute in court.

There are 7 states that discriminate against adult bikers between the ages of 18 and 20. Arkansas (), Florida, Kentucky (), Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Texas (*).

Here is the link http://usff.com/hldl/frames/50state.html

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

I don't understand how anyone can compare an atv being on a city street to a motorcycle being on a city street.
First: A motorcycle is a vehicle recognized by the DMV and the DOT as a vehicle legal to be use on the streets, an atv is not. Second: A person riding a motorcycle must pass a special test over and above a normal drivers license to ride a motorcycle on the street. From what I have heard about this stupid atv law, an atv rider will not. Third: A motorcycle has a state approved license plate, which has road taxes associated with it. So that while you are riding a motorcycle you are helping to pay for the road you are using, an atv does not. Fourth: A motorcycle must have mandatory insurance, to cover both the rider and other vehicles and people using the road, an atv does not. So with this in mind no comparison can be made between a motorcycle and an atv using a city street. And since no comparison can be made and arguements associated along those lines are a moot point and must be taken out of the equation. That being the case, most of the arguments made by those in favor of this idiocy must be thrown out. With those arguments thrown out there is nothing left but the arguments of those against this.

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stoffle 4 years, 10 months ago

If an ATV or OHV are going to be ridden on the streets they are required to have insurance. Most people do already carry liability coverage and some have full coverage.

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MtnMaker 4 years, 10 months ago

als362...Hummmm. State just gave bicycles full right to be on highway. Don't see them taking a SPECIAL test or having to have ANY insurance or licenes or extra safety features. They should.... but they don't. Still trying to figure out what a motorcycle has that makes it MORE qualifyed to be on the highway at 25 miles an hour or less also? I do fully agree with your point on testing, at least for a starting point for newer rider. Only thing I seen the City miss that would be helpful though, would be a horn. At least a loud as a small car. Bigfoot was right also in saying the only ones hurt are people either drinking or riding in a way the machine werent ment for.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

I heard someone make the statement that atv's were built for street use. Funny, I have never seen an advertisement showing one on a street. Every ad I ever saw showed them out in the boonies.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

als I am going to try and answer a few of your questions here, but first let me say, I have been reading your comments and have chosen to not acknowledge you because it is obvious that you wish to be highly contraversial and have no interest in a productive debate. I will try this once because I think that you have asked questions that a lot of people want to know the answers to. If you choose to respond in an adult manner, I will continue to answer any other legitamate questions to the best of my knowledge. If you choose to come back with more rudeness and complete refusal to acknowledge a point made, you will be on your own to rant to whomever will listen. First. Craig is a "home rule" city. In some legal way, that allows the powers to be to create ordanances or take suggestions from the citizens that can be adopted in the Cities books. There is a law on the books; Colorado State Parks (they govern ATVs) 33-14.5-110- Regulation by political subdivisions. This law makes it legal to do this. This is a fact. You do not have to agree with it, but it is what makes this possible wether an ATV is recognized by the State or not. This is also why we can NOT ride them on a State Highway. (agriculture and Atvs licensed in another state are exempt- I believe) Second. There is currently NO state recognized training process or requirements for these types of vehicles. Manufacturers offer saftey materials at the time of purchase but they traditionaly deal with of road issues and instruction on different terrain conditions. They do deal with the machines limitations, functions and saftey features which are useful in this application. I believe that this ordanance is written so that as new laws come at the State level (such as helmet law) they will be adopted where applicable. Third. Since the State currently does not recognize the ATV, there is no way to plate it BUT we do pay a State fee of $25.00, just like your boat. That fee alows you to put your boat anywhere you like. Maybe our ATVs will be the same. We have also asked that the City issue a PERMIT. This permit (the fee is as of yet undecided) will also help pay for the costs incured by the use of our streets and services. Fourth. If this ordanance passes, an ATV WILL be required to carry the SAME amount of insurance as required by the State to license a motorcycle in Colorado.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

als, Now, let me also say, I know who you are, I know that you have attended at least one of the Councils meetings when the draft ordanance was read and copies were passed out. You actually already knew that all of your questions have been addressed and are covered in the ordanance or at the meetings. You also know that a copy of the ordanance was attached to The Dailey Press's article on Tuesday the 17th. I realize that the beauty of these blogs is that you can spew false information all night long anonimously if you like, but if you want anymore real questions answered by me, you should watch how you present them. Anymore INTENTIONALY MISLEADING information and you'll get no more interaction from me.

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proudmomma2 4 years, 10 months ago

I totally see where some people are coming from with wanting to pass this ordinance BUT is everyone thinking clear here? Yeah the economy is tough right now, yes gas is expensive, and yes it would be nice to be able to ride your 4-wheeler to work to safe on gas. BUT what about the laws?? What about drinking and driving? What about the safety of people driving 4-wheeler with semi truck, car, and other vehicles?

Why on earth would you want to drive a 4-wheeler on Victory or Yampa Ave? What about helmets? Yeah riding a motorcycle is ride at your own risk and dangerous especially the people who don't wear helmets nor the proper gear, so why approve of this ordinance?

Is the City of Craig and the Moffat County gonna have special laws for these riders? Are the cops even gonna comment on this ordinance? What do they think about this?

Maybe if people where not going to be on the main highway this would be something to think about, BUT 4-wheels and highways DO NOT MIX!!!!

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

proudmamm2a, The ordanance states that the State Highways are NOT designated roads. This means Yampa and Victory Way and Ranney Street South of Victory Way are not to be ridden on. There is no helmet law in CO at this time. The model for this ordananceis suppose to, if you will, model all current state laws regaurding the use of motorcycles on public roadways. Yes there will be laws. All laws that are currently adopted by the City Traffic Codes will be applicable here. Yes, the Cops are going to comment, they have been working on the ordanance since the idea was presented to City Council last summer. In case you just signed on, there is a copy of the draft ordanance attached to story on Nov 17th. Again atv's will not be legal on Highways, 13 or 40

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stoffle 4 years, 10 months ago

Proud momma 2- The ordinance states that no atv or ohv will be allowed on the highway. That includes Victory Way and Yampa Ave since they both are major highways. An atv/ohv will be able to cross them at a 90 degree angle. Helmets are not required by state law for motorcycles and at this point that has not been an issue for the atv ordinance. If one would like to wear one I would recommend it.

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valleylocal 4 years, 10 months ago

OK, through all the debate about this issue I have forget the real reason why this ordinance was brought to the attention of our City Council...To save gas? Convenience? Safety?...So please remind us or re-inform us...but If I remember correctly it was to save gas and be more economical or shall I say 'be green' or reduce our 'carbon foot print'! (Can't wait for the arguement

Bwhite: you stated it perferectly: "There is currently NO state recognized training process or requirements for these types of vehicles. Manufacturers offer saftey materials at the time of purchase but they traditionaly deal with of road issues and instruction on different terrain conditions. They do deal with the machines limitations, functions and saftey features which are useful in this application" .

But If you would continue reading your owners manual, you would read that performance, handeling, and safety is greatly reduced on paved surfaces and/or adverse conditions!

Let me put it this way...I can crap in a box and put a guarantee on it, but does it really mean its a good product?

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To bwhite: I think your idea of respond in an adult manner, and a productive debate, means to agree with you. Anytime someone says anything bad about this, you also argue with some passion, just as I do. Just because a person has a different opinion from yours does not mean they are contraversial. And legitimate questions, must mean ones that you can answer, right?.
Just because a person calls something that is silly and stupid, because that is exactly what they mean, does not mean they are not responding in an adult manner. It mearly shows that they are using thier descriptive powers to explain thier feelings. I have not called anbody names, or threatened anyone, I have mearly ststed my opinion with some passion. If that is what you call not being adult, then I think you should stay out of this, because to me that says that you are the one acting in a non adult manner.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

The whole problem is that the group presenting this may be responsible and safe, what they are not considering is that the rest of those using them will not be. By their reason, some magic stroke of a pen will make every user behave and follow the law, which will NOT happen. Wake up and come on over to reality, "saving gas" and reducing parking are not good enough reasons to let ATV's on our streets. Come up with a better one and I'll listen.

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JAHM 4 years, 10 months ago

I am having a hard time understanding this. You live in Northwestern Colorado where there are multiple locations to go and ride your ATVs and many landowners allow this activity as well. It is a small community so is it really that hard to hop on a bicycle and ride to the store or work. Why must we have this ability to ride a vehicle designed for OFF-ROAD on public streets? Are the opportunities out of city limits not enough? Sounds like some are just not happy til they can demand more!!!! Be thankful you have so many places to ride these toys! Some areas of this country you have to belong to a club to even get a chance to ride them.

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bwhite 4 years, 10 months ago

als, My bad, you got me on a few there, but not all. You do have the right to your opinion. Let me rephrase- legitamate comments; baby games, loose all sense they once had, crazy jet ski people, ride the ailse of Safeway, out of control group, all atv owners will break the law.. I guess since those are your opinions, it's alright to let them fly. I've probably let a few go myself. You are mistaken on the agreement issue.I do not expect everyone to agree with this issue. They never do and they never will. As for productive debate, intentional misinformation does not help anyone trying to learn the facts. Correct me if I am wrong but you know that the City is planning to charge a fee for the required permit in this ordanance, and that the CO OHV sticker also cost $ every year, which goes to the State. You also know that there is insurance coverage available and will be mandantory if you wish to purchase a permit. Again, if I'm wrong, my bad, but you have been following this issue close enough to have gathered this info by now. I know that you attended at least one meeting where it was discussed.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To bwhite: Unless the charge to ride on the street is $500.00+ it is not enough to suit me. No arguement you can make will sway my opinion that these things have no business on the city streets.
I must agree with JAHM, exactly right on the mark.
This entire atv ordinance deal is about one thing and one thing only.
People that want to have thier play time/fun time on the city streets. The streets are no place for play time/fun time. They are the place for business of driving. Which is a serious business, and has no room for play time/ fun time. Play time/ fun time belongs off the road, out in the boonies.

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wolfshadoww 4 years, 10 months ago

I've been kind of following and reading this ever since it came up. When I moved to Craig, I left my ATV behind in Rangely, because I knew I wouldn't be able to ride it from my house to any "boonies". I don't have a trailer for it, so I can't load it up and take it somewhere. I was never much into hopping on my ATV and running to the grocery store-- mine is a pure sport toy. It doesn't have saddle bags or special compartments to put my milk in like some of the more useful farming/ranch machines do.

Rangely allows ATVs and UTV's on public streets, but Rangely is a town of 2,000 and Craig has... 8,000? IDK for sure. In the summertime, it was common to see kids on the roads, driving at a responsible speeds, to summer activities. This allowed them to get to the library, to swim team, to baseball, to whatever while their parents were at work. I did not see a lot of abuse of this, to be honest. There is also a lot less traffic in a small town-- on the side streets anyway.

We could not ride on HWY 64- it was a road to be crossed at a 90 degree angle. Which was not a huge deal- one just waited for traffic to be completely gone (so you do not get smashed by what was meant to be on the roads, semis, big trucks, cars,...) before crossing from one dirt path to another.

I have seen some irresponsible use of these machines both on and off the roads. I have also seen responsible use.

I am still undecided if I am actually for or against this ordinance. If it passes, I'm not going to go and get my ATV so I can ride it on the streets of Craig. I don't plan on running down to Safeway and zipping up and down the aisles in celebration.

I would like to think for the most part, people would be reasonable and responsible. As with any activity, there will always be those that abuse it no matter what law enforcement does to try and enforce it.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

"I would like to think for the most part, people would be reasonable and responsible."

I would hope so to, but on a machine considered a toy, that does not happen in this city of almost 10,000. ATV's are designed for off road fun (hunting, goofing off at Sandwash) and off road work (farming, ranching, etc..), not as a participant in city traffic. How about some stats on the towns that allow them, how many people live in those towns? I have tried every combo of search parameters to find cities that allow them and have come up with nothing. Where did you get the info on other towns? I can see it in Rangely or Dinosaur, Maybell...but not here, too many people, too much traffic and to many opportunities for a fatality. It would be interesting to get the opinion of the medical community, the ones that will have to save you and patch you up when you are knocked 30 feet off your toy into a tree or another car...or...when you plow over some little kid riding their bike. Maybe I'll ask around.

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trbigfoot 4 years, 10 months ago

Why is it that some one alway's assumes that every one will use the ATV,OHVS in a reckless manner. Maybe Craig should outlaw the sportbikes, bicycle's,moped's or any other mean's of transportarion, that is not a car or truck. Every thing can be miss used. There will be some one who breaks the rule's just like with all other form's of transportation. I have read that Silverton alows the use of ATV's in the manner disscused here and I know Utah has city's that are pro ATV. Also when the power plant was beeing built ther was a man that had a three wheeler with leagle plates that rode to the plant to work. Not every one is going to like this just like other things but it can be a benafit to some resident's. It can not be as bad as all the driver's out there talking on cell phones will driveing which you see day in and day out. Give it a chance.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

They are designed for reckless behavior, off road, where reckless behavior belongs. Other forms of transportation mentioned in this thread do not count...again, do not count, they are already established vehicles on the roads and streets. I just don't understand the eagerness to add another vehicle to the road, especially one that belongs off of it. This will all be fun and games until someone gets killed, then what? I implore the council to reconsider this and think of the liability to them and this city for passing it. I personally will hold them responsible as well as the user of the ATV if an accident occurs.

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yampa78 4 years, 10 months ago

david just dont ride your atv on the road and let every one else do what they want to. i lived in alaska and every one rode a snow/atv in summer and winter and it wasnt like there was dead people piled up on the side of the road.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

To yampa78: If it weren't for the safety aspect of this situation, I would be very happy to "let every one else do what they want to do".
But there are too many people that drive in this town that haven't the slightest idea what they are doing when they get inside a car.
Also there are people that for some unknown reason choose to walk and jog in the street when there is a sidewalk or side street 20 feet away.
Then there are the people on bikes that can't seem to obey any traffic laws at all.
All three of these things also occur in the winter when the roads are slick, and at night when it is dark.
There are enough things for me to look out for as it is now, I do not want to see anything else creating any more possible accidents. And I for sure don't want to be the one that hits one of these atv toys because someone did not see me coming, and tried to make it across US 40. I f these reasons aren't enough for you then I think you are wearing blinders.

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David Moore 4 years, 10 months ago

I would never own one of those death traps, too many people I know have either been hurt or killed on one. I could care less if you go off road and act the fool, that is what they are designed for, I have done it in the past with some of those same friends, OFF ROAD, that's the difference. So whats next? Carrying guns around like back in the old west? Snowmobiles? Landing your ultralight or personal helicopter on your street so you can "go to the store" or "a mile and a half to work"? Watercraft in the wave pool? Why not, give one special interest group their rights, might as well give everyone else what they want, right? Forget the citizens who will have to watch out for you(AND everyhting else already out there), forget the citizens who may be innocently hurt or killed by your selfishness, forget everyone....."I want to do what I want". Typical mentality of a special interest group, it's all about them, the rest of the citizens(the other 8,750 of us), who I am speaking of, are the ones who lose. Leave ATV's to be used where they already are, the Sandrocks, Jeep runs, Sandwash and wherever there are less people and less traffic to deal with, which is 98% of Moffat County, the second LARGEST county in Colorado. THAT is where the selfish comes in, 98% of a large county is yours to do "whatever you want", leave the 2% of the city alone. That ol' grandma saying comes up once again...give them an inch, they will take a mile.

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als362 4 years, 10 months ago

Right on the mark David, absolutely correct!

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