Should the city provide $150,000 to the Moffat County School District for an expanded gymnasium at Craig Middle School?

Yes 139 votes

51.48%

No 131 votes

48.52%

270 total votes

Comments

als362 5 years, 8 months ago

As I stated earlier, I would much rather spend $150,000.00 on expanding a gym connected with a school than have someone jam a multimillion dollar rec center down my throat that will never be used to its capacity, will only be a major cost liability for the city/county, and people will still be complaining there is nothing to do after it is built. I can understand the need for a gym connected with a school. But fitness and recreation centers need to built by the private sector. And if the private sector say a way to profit there, it would have been built long ago.

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als362 5 years, 9 months ago

To boxer21 and valleylocal Since you are both fans of wasting money. Both of you should pool your money, take out 2nd, 3rd and 4th mortgages on everything you own and build another monument to stupidity called a rec center.

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

als362: You continue to mention this is a waste of money. Please explain how so. Also, you have continued to comment that the money could go towards something more useful. I would also like to hear what would be more useful in Craig. Please be realistic as well, I've already read some pretty outlandish ideas from you. (Take out a loan and build it myself, take out a 1-4th mortgage...etc.) Thanks.

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amankra 5 years, 9 months ago

ummm they already have a gym........ another is not needed.....find a better use of the money

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als362 5 years, 9 months ago

I would rather spend 150K here than spend millions on a stupid, useless rec center that only a few will use, and will undoubtedly loose money every time someone comes through the door. An expanded gym could be used by all the people that live here, and another building would not be needed. And at least the students will use this probably every day. And building it now, while the crews are there to do it would probably be cheaper than waiting and have to get a new general contractor, and workers on site.

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freeman 5 years, 9 months ago

why not spend the money on buying dr tolds office,,then maybe the responce team will have a place to go

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

The middle school is in desperate need for an expansion with the gym. The current gym is horrible and outdated. Try playing basketball, volleyball, or any other sport in that gym and you slide everywhere. EVERYTHING in that gym needs help. Also, als362, a rec center is JUST WHAT WE NEED HERE IN CRAIG. I can literally think of hundreds of high schoolers, middle school kids, and even adults that complain about how they have nothing to do. It would increase jobs in Craig, could be used to promote small business practices like massage therapy, yoga, personal training, etc... and would be nice to have a full sized center to go to play basketball, lift weights, run around a track, swim, and everything else, ALL IN ONE PLACE. With a rec center we would have less obese kids walking around, less boredom, and hopefully less drug abuse. CRAIG NEEDS A REC CENTER!!!! (and the middle school gym definitely needs an expansion.)

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als362 5 years, 9 months ago

To boxer21 If this rec center crap was such a good idea, then someone in the private sector would have already built one to make money. Instead, if the city or county builds one it will only cost us money. Besides that if there are so many teens that will be using it then why can't they use the gym(s) that are attached to the schools that are already here and have the equipment necessary for sports. As far as yoga goes, I don't think you or anyone else needs a special building for that. And there are numerous private companies in this area that offer massages, and there are two physical/sports therapy places here now. No boxer21 the rec center stupidity is a bad idea, and not needed at all!

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DV8 5 years, 9 months ago

Maybe the school should be using the tax money that was voted for to build a gym. Wasn't it to be used to remodel, udate, etc.? Maybe if they would use money to remodel, rather than giving Bergman a salery to complete with Vail and Aspen, they wouldn't need to ask the city.

As for the rec center... it is a waste. The kids who complain that there is nothing to do, probably won't be going to the rec center (or the new gym). If they were interested in the activiities offered by a rec center or gym, they would already be involved with them at the current facilities.

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

It is people like als362 and DV8 that brings this economy down. Of course it will cost money to build, what doesn't? But it is your constant negativity that people listen to and soon they jump on the bandwagon for some reason because I honestly believe most people here in this town like being upset, or want sympathy, or something. I can't figure it out. It's amazing. As for my comments about yoga, swimming and the others, those were ideas, and I wasn't basing my specific point of view to have a rec center on that. As for the gym use that we currently have...who's going to go supervise 24/7 to make sure they are playing safe, not tampering with equipment and so forth? Maybe DV8 or als362 would be so kindly to donate their time to support our kids and community. My guess is, if it helps Craig in any way, but takes one cent out of our pockets, DV8 and als362 would start on their rant about how it would remind them of "idiocy, stupidity" and other choice words they use. To DV8: Maybe if you used your time to go back to school and become educated, you wouldn't be wasting your time complaining about others' salaries because you might have one of your own. By the way, how in the world do you know his salary? The only time I saw his salary was posted in this paper about 2 or 3 years ago where he took a pay decrease to help out with the budgets. I guarantee if you were in that situation, you would have been happy with the pay and wouldn't have said a word or have done anything about it. You would have kept your mouth shut, but instead you're at your computer upset about everything and want to bring people down with you by complaining about others. You and als362 are a good reason why this depression or recession are going to be so hard to overcome. It's this constant negativity from everyone that exacerbates our economy. I honestly don't know why I read these things. It's discomforting to hear some of Craig residents' opinions. Whatever happens, let's hope, (don't forget about that word you two), it works out.

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als362 5 years, 9 months ago

Who should supervise the children using the gym? Their parents of course, who else? For adults being safe, they would be on their own to make sure they don't get hurt. And it does not need to be open to the public 24/7, the school use will come first, then after that normal business hours will be more than sufficient. People would only be allowed in after they signed a waiver that states the city/county is NOT responsible for their well being, and that any missing items will be replaced by them. You are correct, if it takes one cent out of my pocket for a waste of money like this rec center crap, then I will raise the living roof.
The main reason we are in this recession, is because banks gave housing loans to people that could not afford them. It has nothing to do with any comments made about a waste of money some people call a rec center. As far as donating time the people that are using the gym should donate their time. And if anything comes up missing, those that signed in to use the gym will be held responsible for the replacement of this equipment. If boxer21 thinks this rec center crap is such a good idea, then you should do just like I told others to do. Go to the bank and get a loan and build it yourself, then you will reap all the benefits that you think are going to come from this thing. Which I can tell you now will be zero. Things that brings the economy down are wasting tax dollars on stupidity like this rec center. There are many more things in this city/county that need attention besides a waste of money rec center, that will only be a liabillity, and never be an asset as far as costs go.

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valleylocal 5 years, 9 months ago

I LOVE YOU BOXER21!!!! I wish more of our fellow citizens would think you. It would bring in businesses, families, and more tourism. What the city and county needs to do is build a rec center around our current pool at the park so that that facility could be used year round. Our city and county also should come together and build even more softball and soccer fields to draw Triple Crown to Craig as their only center for tournaments in the valley, which in turn would produce more hotels and restaurants to be built to handle the increase in tourism. This increase in tourism and tax dollars would then be returned to the community's infrastructure, streets, social programs for both the young and elderly, and etc. I also hope that once the college is finished, CNCC's sports teams relocate here to aid in the development of your great community. The creation of a rec center and sports complex would benefit everyone in this community by providing great places to exercise and reduce, and possibly prevent, unnecessary health issues and that would help drive down the cost of health care! I could go on and on but only those of us that realize the importance of such rambling understand. Lets pull together and help out our younger generations because they are the one's that will be supporting us as elders.

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als362 5 years, 8 months ago

I think that if boxer21 can't afford the things needed to entertain yourself and your family then you should take your own advice. Go back to school, so you can get an education then perhaps you will get a raise. But please don't expect me to have to pay for you and your family's entertainment. If there is not enough for you to do here, and if that is very important to you, then you should consider going to a place where that has the activities that you think you need. Sounds like there is the type of facility you want in Laramie, you could move there

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

I said attitudes like yours is why our economy is going to have such a difficult time improving because of the negativity you live for. I said nothing about MBS's and the banks using sub-prime borrowers to reap massive amounts in the late 90's by selling loans to other banks. I never once said that. Also, just to let you know, that is not the main reason our economy is the way it is today. You're just another typical person who watches the news and believes everything you hear way too often. Good for you for trying to stay on top of things, but shame on you for opening your mouth and repeating unreliable sources a.k.a. "the media." And the point that you make, for those who want it should go out and get a loan to pay for it...You have to be kidding me. How many people in Craig use the public library? Not that many, yet for some reason we all had to pay for it! Are you against that too? The point I'm making now, is that you can't tell us to go out and do it ourselves. That's just a ridiculous statement. Here's what als362 needs to do...get on your phone, call the mayor of Meeker, and ask, "Was the rec center a beneficial investment for your community?" The thing that "raises the living roof" for me, als362, is that you are looking at this completely wrong. You are looking at this as more of a business perspective instead of community. I tried explaining how some personal operations might be benefited with a rec center, but honestly, to me, that is not the major concern. It's the young adults and children of Craig who I think would benefit greatly with a rec center. Do not look at this as a business objective because that is your first mistake. Look at this as way to help the kids. As for the parents comment, and how they will look after the kids while using the gym, is asinine. Craig is having enough trouble trying to find coaches for little league and all other sorts of events. You think parents are going to want even more responsibility to watch over their kid(s) and others? Give them a break. If you think a rec center is so "stupid," then do something about it so it does not become built, but don't think it's our issue (those who want one), to go out a get a loan. Well thought out though, good job on that idea. I'm telling ya, you watch too much T.V.

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

Valleylocal is amazing. You are so dead on with your last comment it's scary. I completely agree with you. Rec center will cost money, but it will also drive in people from out of town, make Craig look like a more desirable place to live, and bring in revenue. Even though I do not think we need to look at this as "just" a business issue, even though we could put up a great argument for it but I really do believe Craig's youth needs this.

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valleylocal 5 years, 9 months ago

als362-No refiancing for me but if we stopped paying into social security, since it won't be around much longer, that would save me about $205,800 during my working life time (16-65) which could be applied to this community for a better quality of live, but who wants quality when you can sit on your money all day. So I guess, Your Welcome, for 'your' retirement. Oh yeah, I guess you think GOWD and Whittle the Wood is a waste of money as well!

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als362 5 years, 9 months ago

OK, there are many nieghborhoods that do not have sidewalks, forcing people to walk in the street creating a dangerous situation for them and me the driver. There are many streets that are falling apart, showing bumps, dirt and gravel through the pavement. We have a new and old schools to keep up and maintain. Also a new hospital will soon be in need of maintenance. City utilities that require constant care and upgrade.
I don't think my ideas are outlandish at all. If this is what you believe in then you should be willing to take the next step and build it. If not, then you really don't believe in it and you should let it go. We have had enough extra taxes in the last several years, the only thing I have ever heard from these rec center jerks is taxes, taxes, taxes. For this thing to pay for itself fees will need to be so high that no one will be able to afford to use it.
I just don't understand why people can't use what is here. Here there are two fitness centers. Two health/sports/occupational therapy companies. Too many ball fields that sit empty nine months out of the year. There is a skateboard facility. Indoor and outdoor pools, a new bowling alley, a new and improved reservoir, a river, a creek, three ponds within a bike ride of almost anywhere in Craig, one just for kids. There are museums, a place dedicated to artists, a rifle/pistol range, and a trap range. There are places not too far away to ride a four wheeler, a snowmobile, ride a bike, run. I have lived in cities two or three times the size and population of Craig that did not have this many facilities for recreation. Just how much do the kids and adults here need? You say you don't get it, well as far as what else might be needed, then I don't get it. I think that most of these people that say there is nothing to do here, would find nothing to do at a Six Flags park after a day, because they have no immagination. That is why I tell you to build it yourself. So either do that or leave it be.

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

Then you can leave it be because I will not. Also, we live in Northwest Colorado. Most of the things you mentioned cannot be done in the winter. Also, you complain about money being an issue with the rec center, but what about money being an issue for those who cannot afford snowmobiles, four wheelers, guns and ammo? The skateboard facility isn't all that great, you already said a great point about the ballfields not being used for nine months, which is contradictory to your argument, and how much fun is a museum? You go there once and you've seen it all. You're worried about having sidewalks? Is this really an issue? I have never drove on a street that was busy here in Craig that didn't have a sidewalk. Also, since you think it's dangerous, I might as well bring up another thing. You said we have a river for people to play in, isn't that dangerous? You do not make sense when you tell me that I don't "believe" in having a rec center because I'm not building one. I fully believe in having one, but just so happens I'm not a carpenter or architect. If you know any good ones send them my way and I'll start coming up with plans for them. One other thing...there really is no need to call us "rec center jerks." Craig has everything you mentioned, but you tell me what one thing Craig has for activities that is has done to the fullest. Nothing. Craig has many things done half-ass and it's because of people like yourself complaining about money. Craig has finally passed two projects we are doing to the fullest. The school and the hospital. It's great. As for everything else...it's inadequate. I say we build a rec center to the fullest, go all in and build it great with every option, and guess what...you'll never have to worry about the upkeep for the other 15 things you mentioned. (cont'd)...

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boxer21 5 years, 9 months ago

Also, do not say anything about Craig's youth not having an imagination when you are the one without a thought in the world about how Craig would benefit from a rec center. Go ahead and give it a day to imagine a rec center in Craig. Here's a start...imagine almost every activity you said in your last post, consolidated into one place that is affordable for all. Imagine taking your kids to basketball practice while you attend a swim class or go work out, or go run around the track while in the same building. Imagine the families thinking about moving here seeing a safe place for their kids to play and be active, knowing they are under supervision. Imagine not having to drive around everywhere to attend all the activities you just said, this would also result in less cars on the road so you don't hit any walkers on the streets w/o sidewalks, less potholes due to wear and tear, and that sort of thing...if you want to get technical about it. Did you know there is a basketball tournament here in Craig this weekend? Imagine being able to play 3 games at once instead of using 4 different facilities. Do you know how much money it is going to cost to keep those 4 facilities open and operational for the weekend. Think of the energy wasted. You are thinking about the now, instead of imagining the future. Having a rec center is inevitable. If you find that you can't take a day to imagine what it would be like to have one, then I ask you to leave it alone.

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Klock 5 years, 9 months ago

Thank you boxer21. I am currently going to school in Laramie wy and they have had a rec center for a couple years now. All I can say is that it is amazing. It has so many programs after school programs for kids and seniors it is insane. What some people don't realize is that on the site where the college is going in they set aside land for a rec center. The indoor pool at the high school is draining the school district of funds that should be going to other maintenance projects. . If some haven't noticed the whole high school is shifting down the hill so how long is it going to take until the whole pool goes out. Right now relying on the community to pass taxes is a joke. I guess that percent of people that voted it down don't want see a community get better. Kind of hence why the college is just now getting done along with the hospital, because this should have been done ten years ago. I have looked into the funding for the facility and they have used their resources of oil companies and grants to get it done. Als362 I would put money on you using the facility if it were built or maybe your one of those blood sucking people that is draining our health care system. The economy will be the least of our worries if people are too fat to work. So you decide? You're the one that will be looked at as the idiot in the end.

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DV8 5 years, 9 months ago

Boxer21, You took a random stab in the dark and missed the mark completely. Your assumptions about me are completely wrong. To start with, I am educated and have a college degree and a steady income that I work hard for. I have also donated my time with youth of this community and I do vote to increase taxes, if it is not going to be wasted.

As for Bergman's salary, I am basing it off this article: http://www.craigdailypress.com/news/2... Where it states that although school admin is already making the same amounts as (or more than) other places that are the same size as Moffat, they need to have the state average that included places with higher costs of living than Moffat.

I don't have a problem with people recieving raises. I have a problem when they say their company/agency can't take care of basic maintenance of their facilities, so they ask tax payers to help out, and when the taxpayers do help out, they get raises to earn more than other places in Colorado that are of the same size/cost of living. Bergman himself stated that the schools didn't have the funds to repair the buildings and that the tax increase was desperately needed. http://www.craigdailypress.com/news/2...

"The large-scale repairs and renovations identified for completion with the passing of the bond election simply cannot happen with the present level of funding." -Pete Bergman

"Very simply, the primary purpose of 3A is to repair our aging buildings. We are at the point where we must have the necessary funding to bring our buildings up to current standards". - Joel D Sheridan, Assistant Superintendent

And from the school's website on the tax request: http://ourkidsourcommunity.com/Q&A.pdf The large-scale repairs and renovations identified for completion with the passing of the bond election simply cannot happen with the present level of funding. The district's ability to address its capital needs (equipment and facility repairs) will be reduced to absolute essential maintenance and equipment purchases.

The Schools are already recieving nealy half of the County Taxes. http://www.co.moffat.co.us/assessor/default.htm

And they still need help from the city building an extra gym?

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DV8 5 years, 9 months ago

Yes, I would be happy with a raise, however at the company I work for, I can't say we don't have money for the basics, can I have a raise? If there isn't money for the basics (such as maintenance) I don't get raises. It's that simple. I don't begrudge anyone earning a living, I question the way money is managed.

As for my views on the Rec Center... the stuff proposed offered little that isn't already available in some form. Craig is not without things to do. It has plenty of things to do. Everything from parks, swimming pools, bingo, community events, etc. The people who complain that there isn't anything to do just don't have an interest in what is available. If Craig really needs more to do, come up with new ideas, not just shiny versions of what exists. I'd be for improving what we already have, especially facilities like the skatepark, because it caters to the non-status quo kids. I'd like to see more commuinty events that cater to those who don't have interests in gyms and pools.

And to condemn me for sitting at my computer upset and complaining about others... Isn't that what you are also doing?

As for hope.... I have a lot of it. I also have a lot of questions and concerns about how things are done in this community, just like you.

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boxer21 5 years, 8 months ago

Thank you als362!!! You just proved my point. You're asking me to move away to find what I'm looking for in a town!!! That's exactly what's going to happen to Craig. Nobody will want to live here because it lacks in innovation. Here are the options. One, people will move away to other towns, and two, people will not move in. Als362, you make this too easy. As for DV8, I am not complaining about others'. I have yet put a specific name on this as you have done. I think it was a cheap shot you took on Bergmann and his salary. This is has also turned into an argument about having a rec center or not. So far you and als362 have yet put valid points together that proves it would be a disservice for Craig CO. Read Klock's comment. Klock is proof. Where's your proof? DV8, as for my random shot in the dark, reread your comment and tell me you can't blame me. Also, here's a random shot in the dark I have heard from you... "The kids who complain that there is nothing to do, probably won't be going to the rec center (or the new gym)." Now, isn't that a random shot in the dark? You said my random shot was way off. What about your's? What if your shot is way off? Plus I had reason with my shot at you DV8. The first paragraph in your first comment had many spelling errors. It was just hard to take that comment serious, especially when you started to get personal with a valued member of this community with a lack of any point at all. If you're so content with your salary and your "hard work," then I find it hard why you would comment on another's. Just for kicks, I'm going to take one more shot in the dark with you DV8. I'm assuming you are a person who is upset with the amount of money professional athletes get paid. Please tell me you are. I'm just assuming that since you have enough energy to complain about an educator's salary, I would hope you are the type of person that has complained about an entertainer's salary. If you want we could argue which one is more important? Educator? Entertainer?....hmmm

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als362 5 years, 8 months ago

boxer21 has shown to the world just how idiotic these rec center folks are. Anyone that believes that the entire community will vacate the area because there is no stupid waste of money rec center is so absolutely in the dark that no amount of light will ever illuminate the spot in which they are in. As soon as all of you, that live only to spend other peoples money for your own recreation are gone (which by the way will be the best thing for this area) others will come here to take the jobs you left. It is the relatively high wages in this area that come from the power and energy industry that keeps the people in Craig, not a pipe dream rec center. What an ignorrant statement!

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boxer21 5 years, 8 months ago

als362, all I can say is you have not let me down when I needed a good laugh. Let's calm down a bit though. Seems we are getting a little out of hand, and that includes myself. DV8 and myself got off track and I apologize to you DV8. This has turned into opinions about if a rec center will or will not benefit Craig. I have not respected your opinions and instead let my emotions cause me to lash out at unrelated topics. I am sorry for that. But I really do not have a clue what als362 is saying. You act like the only people who will have to pay for this rec center are those who do not want one. I also understand Craig and how our natural resources bring in many people. Als362, let's go ahead and speak about a word you chose to use..."ignorance." Your entire last statement was ignorant. You can not tell me Craig is better off if those of us who want a rec center are gone! That is completely ignorant!!! I'm done here. I've stated my opinion and wanted nothing more to do. Also, please do not categorize us as "rec center folk." I do not speak on the behalf of those who want a rec center. I'm speaking of my opinions alone. Feel free to bash my opinions because i'm finished with this blog. I really have nothing more to say about how I feel about the rec center. I know some of you are afraid of it because of money issues and the fact that you think we have everything a rec center would bring, but I believe you are missing the big picture. Anyways, it was good arguing with DV8 and you too als362, but it looks like we're going to have to meet again with another issue at another time. I apologize for any misdirected and obtuse comments I may have made that were unrelated to the rec center. Hope you accept my apology and I leave you with this....

"When money is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost; when character is lost, all is lost."

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als362 5 years, 8 months ago

Speaking of character being lost. Why do people keep trying to ram this trash down our throats after it has been voted down by the people, via legal ballot,several times. If anything is a loss of character that is.

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missrose 5 years, 8 months ago

Why don't they spend the money on getting better school district administrators and educating the students better? The high school administrators are so corrupt and pathetic and worry about their images that they do what isn't in the best interests of the students. It is horrible and no wonder the students call the administrators the gestapo, I don't blame them. They are so paranoid about bad things happening that they have become ineffective in almost every other way. People need to start taking responsibility with that school. Maybe they should talk to the students and get some positive input rather than looking at everybody as criminals or not even dealing with the ramp id drug and alcohol problem that is plaguing MCHS. Or maybe they should invest that into a more effective sex education program. Is it just me or is every other female in that school pregnant or has had a baby? That school is terrible and I don't blame anybody for wanting to leave. Invest in our children's future by getting rid of the ineffective individuals. The politics at that school or unbelievable!

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Tomlan07 5 years, 8 months ago

I just want to set a few things straight here: First of all, his name is Pete Bergmann, he happens to be a close family friend, and I promise that you don't know as much as you think you do. Secondly, I participate in the Parks and Rec programs that we have available here in the City of Craig, and I can assure all of you that the gyms that are available are used constantly. The problem is that every gym is overbooked, therefore, we are not able to create any more programs. Also, the volume of children that participate in the programs is decreasing, mostly because there is not enough space or time to fit all of the kids in. I coached Parks and Rec basketball last year, ages five through eight, and there were well over fifteen children that signed up and weren't able to play because there was no more room!! If that doesn't bother you, then vote no for a gym expansion or rec center, but it will be the people like you that fuel the issues of obesity in children. I would also like to say that, yes, we are all paying taxes for the remodeling and renovating of the schools in our district, but expanding the gym wasn't originally planned. Now, I think that it should have been included in the original plan, but the plan is geared toward making the schools safer for all of the children. The workers are going to install new heating and electrical systems, A.K.A. less sick kids, and new roofing for the schools that need it. Not to mention that it will be creating more space for the students so that they aren't stuck in over-crowded classrooms where they don't get the one-on-one time that they need to learn efficiently; and it will also be creating less transitions for children to make through the school years.

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