Dale Potter: A counterargument

To the editor:

I want to commend the staff and sponsor of the Post Script of Moffat Country High School for their well-produced newspaper. This is an excellent hands-on experience for talented writers, preparing them to take an active part in one of our cherished American rights, freedom of the press.

Ryan Neece’s article on homosexuality was well thought out and well written. However, I would like to present to Ryan and his readers the reasons why I disagree with him.

My reasons are taken from the Bible, and so are in danger of being tossed out because the Bible is a religious book, and the “state” is supposed to be separate from religion.

I will use the Bible anyway because this nation was founded openly and unabashedly upon Biblical principles.

The separation of church and state doctrine (not part of the Constitution) was a safeguard from the state forcing any one religion on the people, as was the case in the European countries at the time of the birth of this nation.

It is not in any way to be considered a banning of any religious ideas from our accepted standard of morality.

Here is a partial presentation of what the Bible says about homosexuality.

 ■ The God of creation made one man and one woman and brought them together as his holy pattern for marriage and the reproduction of children from the beginning of time — Genesis chapter 2.

■ The Ten Commandments found in Exodus 20 are the basis for the moral standard of our nation, regardless of what the ACLU says.  One of those commandments says, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” Adultery, in the original language, takes in any form of sexual activity outside of the marriage vows. That includes homosexuality. God says, do not do it.

■ The New Testament reinforces in this age what God said back in Moses’ day. In I Corinthians 6, the Apostle Paul lists some behaviors that God will judge, and “abusers of themselves with mankind” is one of them.

However, in verse 11 he says, “And such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus …” 

This is good news. God condemns homosexuality as a sin, but he also offers forgiveness and cleansing because his son paid for that sin along with all other sins.

The way to appropriate that forgiveness is to believe that Jesus took the punishment as our Substitute, and will give eternal life to whoever believes in Him — John 3:16.

 There you have it, Ryan. I hope you will give God’s declarations some serious consideration.

Pastor Dale Potter

Yampa Valley Baptist Church

Comments

obtuse1 4 years, 2 months ago

1 corrinthians 6 says dont go to court and sue your church brothers and speaks of sins against the body . like being with a prostitute i beleive is the example . also food and gluttany is noted do you think its a message expressing jesus forgiveness for all our sins or judgment of all who sin .

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Rebelgirl 4 years, 2 months ago

Does your bible also state that the only one that can judge any one is your god??? And if this country was made out of people trying to escape prosecution then why are you doing that very thing. Congrats to you for hating, judging or condeming those you dont know but for the simple fact they are gay. I say they want to fight for the supposed freedoms that we have then let them. I don't see you out there with a gun in your hand getting shot at trying to protect your christian ways. Doesn't your bible also say love thy neighbor and treat others as you want to be treated??? Then don't expect any love from me anytime soon and I will gladly treat you as you have treated me. Why don't you worry a little more about your own life and not meddle in the affairs of others?? If gays are going to hell then let them it is their life, not yours. Just how exactly does their loving someone of the same sex directly hurt you?? I am not trying to be disrespectful, everyone has the right to belive in what they want to, but STOP forcing me to fit into the mold that you see everyone should fit into.

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GreyStone 4 years, 2 months ago

The young man’s article on the Armed forces policy of Don’t ask Don’t tell was right on.

Ryan, Views of these bible thumpers is at most Barbaric and uncivilized.

The pastor posts some bland bible quotes , however there are some other quotes that might reveal the more accurate, barbaric position of these bible nuts…

*If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Bible, Leviticus 20:13)

*Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:26-32)

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westslopeguy 4 years, 2 months ago

I promised I won't post. Ergo, tomorrow I will respond in writing to "pastor" Potter and Ryan personally.

IF, (and I know that's unlikely), you want to know what I had to say you'll have to ask Ryan and/or "pastor", (look up the meaning of the word and you might understand my quotation marks), Potter.

Once again, I am incensed and promised myself and the Craig Community I'd keep my opinions to myself. This is as close as I get to keeping that promise.

Ask around, you'll probably get the gist of my 2cents, Paul

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native_craig_guy 4 years, 2 months ago

Why is it that the Pastor feels so threatened by life choices or genetic tendencies that he would spout off regarding homosexuality as a sin. I simply do not understand why individuals cannot let other individuals live their lives. Why do religious zealots feel the need to judge and put down others because of their actions/beliefs that in no way affect them. Who cares that someone is homosexual? Why would you worry so much about imposing your beliefs on others? Isn't a relationship with god supposed to be a personal one? Who granted you the power to tell people for which to seek forgiveness? I simply fail to see how the pastor's comments make the world a better place. I pity those who feel such hatred and disgust that they put down total strangers because of whom they choose to make a life with. The pastor is a fine example of a judgmental religious fool who makes all Christians look bad.

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GreyStone 4 years, 2 months ago

The terms sanctimonious, self-righteous, bible thumper, seem to be relevant.

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jamcolo 4 years, 2 months ago

In response to Dale Potter letter, A counterargument I have this to say. Many of our so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

It is true that the words (separation of church and state) are not found in the Constitution. Guess what else is not in the Constitution. God,There is only one place where the word Lord is used in the Constitution.Found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts.The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. Adultery in the Bible is sex with anyone but your first wife not just your wife.Jesus had this to say. From Matthew 5. "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality (FORNICATION) causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery. We see it again in Mark 10 ""Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery." yet again in Luke 16 but you get the idea. Scripture throughout teaches the permanency of the marriage union.

The Bible has a history of being used in the United States to justify the keeping of slaves,to keep woman from getting the right to vote and till the 1960's to keep mix race couples from getting married. The Bible also teaches us the the earth is flat with a sun that revolves around it. That explains why one adult American in five thinks the Sun revolves around the Earth.

It is past time to stop using the bible to spread hate of others that don't follow you beliefs or your cherry picking of scripture.

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Rebelgirl 4 years, 2 months ago

I must say I am truely surprised and thankfull for some of the posts that are here. Obviously not all of the people in Craig are close-minded rednecks hiding behind a book after all. And I must thank those that share the same idea that this country should not be controlled by the followers of said book. I do have some hope that maybe one day people will rule the world and not a bunch of sheep.

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taxslave 4 years, 2 months ago

Romans Chapter 1, Verses 21 to the end of the chapter. In a nutshell.....they denied the power of God so he turned them over to a reprobabe mind to do what is unnatural.

If everyone were gay how would we reproduce? In a test tube? Is that the world you want to live in?

Don't blame the Creator for the failure of the church or the so called christians.

Homosexuals, another species following in the footsteps of the pope.

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GreyStone 4 years, 2 months ago

There you have it… in a Biblical nut shell

The fear is that we are all going to be turned into homosexuals and our sexual perversions will be in vain.

Then there is the pope... not sure how he fits in but what the heck.

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George Robertson 4 years, 2 months ago

As a foursome tees off at the first hole, three place it right down the fairway and the fourth veers off into the rough. While walking to take their next shot the first is asked how his son is doing. He replies "Oh he is doing so well as a porsche dealer that last week he gave away a porsche." When the second is asked he indicates that as a pool and spa dealer his son has done so well that last week he gave away a complete swimming pool. The third tells that his son too is in the running as a funiture salesman and last week was able to give away an entire house full of furniture. As the fourth finally joins up with the other three, he is asked how his son is doing. "Well" he says "I found out last week that he is gay". The other three offer their condolences and indicate how that is a fathers worst nightmare. He replies "It's really not that bad, last week his boy friends gave him a porsche, a swimming pool and an entire house full of furniture."

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GreyStone 4 years, 2 months ago

nimrod,

That’s a good one. We need humor like that… keeps this in prospective

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oldsage 4 years, 2 months ago

Jam colorado, how appropriate the name! It also is not shocking that someone who worships a Harley "Supper" Glide from the bottom of a bottle agrees with you. Your education and IQ is showing!

The amazing fact remains that a simple study of letters written by the founders of this country show that these "Deists" as you call them professed their Christian faith to each other and others with whom they corresponded. So quit Kathy Bassetting and tell the truth!

And on a note of levity, What is the difference between a Harley and a Hoover?

Answer: You can get two dirt bags on the Harley! LOL

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jamcolo 4 years, 2 months ago

Oldsage,

Please inform me as to how you came up with my sign in name has anything to do with a Harley motorcycle? Your wrong, My name is James, I live in Colorado. I use the first three letters of my first name and the first four letters of the state I live to come up with Jamcolo. Then you call my a drunk and insult my education and IQ. I guess you missed that part in the Bible about judging others. Typical of many Christians sorry to say.

Thomas Jefferson wrote his own Bible. The Jefferson Bible, which eliminated all miracles attributed to Jesus and ended with his burial. In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." John Adams: a Unitarian flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:” I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

James Madison, when Virginia was considering passage of a bill "establishing a provision for Teachers of the Christian Religion," Madison wrote his famous "Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments" in which he presented fifteen reasons why government should not be come involved in the support of any religion.

George Washington, Quotes: "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it."

Thomas Paine, “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

Even if some were Christian, they knew better then to give controlling power to the Church.

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George Robertson 4 years, 2 months ago

The pope commented to one of his bishops that he had good news and bad news. The bishop asked "what is the good news". The pope replied "well Jesus Christ himself called me on the phone this morning". The bishop cried "why that's miraculous news, what could possibly be the bad news?" The pope answered "well damn it he called collect from Salt Lake!"

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Sumarjn 4 years, 2 months ago

Oldsage's comments make perfect sense if you can understand context.

I can also see how some of his comments could leave some of you in a vacuum...

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Anitadunnce 4 years, 2 months ago

Response to taxslave @11:40am on 2/9/2010: Fortunately, taxslave, God figured that out before we mortals with our pea-brains had to worry about it. He did NOT make "everyone gay", so you won't have to worry about reproduction, or the lack thereof.

In fact, the opposite problem is at the fore. There are segments of society who have entered the US who mindlessly procreate with such abandon, and with no thought to how they are going to feed, clothe, and educate their large broods, that our concern might better be focused on what to do about them. I frankly am partial to the bumber sticker: "If you can't feed, don't breed."

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Anitadunnce 4 years, 2 months ago

Another response to taxslave: You wrote the following. "Romans Chapter 1, Verses 21 to the end of the chapter. In a nutshell…..they denied the power of God so he turned them over to a reprobabe mind to do what is 'unnatural'." (emphasis added)

If you did not have such narrow views, taxslave, you would have figured this out before you had to read it in my comment. For a gay man, lying with a WOMAN is "unnatural". For a lesbian, lying with a MAN is "unnatural". Try this so that you can wrap your brain around the concept: if you are a hetero male, taxslave, then go out and find yourself a gay lover so that you can experience once just how "unnatural" the above-referenced acts would be for gays and lesbians. If you do that, you surely will start to understand that "unnatural" has different connotations, depending upon your own perspective. It is narrow, wrong, and ignorant for you to demand of gays and lesbians that they should find partners of the opposite sex, when you apparently make no effort to understand them by seeking out a same-sex partner.

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daybyday 4 years, 2 months ago

No doubt religion is a tough subject, but I read all the letters to the editor and the posts here.

Pastor Potter, Christians and/or Christian viewpoints were called, "barbaric," "uncivilized," "nuts," "fool," "zealots," "sanctimonious," "closed-minded," "rednecks," "narrow-minded," "ignorant," "judgemental jerk," "hate-mongers," "KKK," "ugly," "presumptous," "exclusionary," "nasty," "hateful," "cherry-picking," "mean-spirited," "hating," "condemning," and "judging."

It makes me feel bad for the young man who wrote the original article and wonder how he could be expected to learn anything about love through such comments from those who are supposedly supporters of his article.

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GreyStone 4 years, 2 months ago

You forgot “sanctimonious Bible Thumper”.

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Anitadunnce 4 years, 2 months ago

daybyday: I am confused by your somewhat obscure post. What exactly are you trying to say? First, NO one called Potter a KKK-member. That claim of yours is either the result of your misreading or your failing to comprehend what you have read. Most of the commenters here are supporting "the young man" (you must be referring to Ryan, I guess, although again I have to question the reason for your strangely obscure reference). Most of us have addressed the bigotry that troubles Ryan.

By the way, you have no need to be concerned about any confusion that you fancy Ryan Neece may be experiencing. Ryan is a great young guy with his head firmly planted on his shoulders; an excellent brain in that head; and a strong moral compass. Ryan is well-adjusted; well-liked by students and teachers alike; and he has a strong work ethic, an inquiring mind, and excellent grades.

I venture to say that it is the sanctimonious, fundamental "born-again" Christians, who are so hateful as to rail against members of the GLBT group, about whom you should be concerned, for it is they who are far off the path and severely misguided.

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daybyday 4 years, 2 months ago

Anitadunnce: I left Ryan's name out because I didn't feel he necessarily deserved to have his name associated with the comments being made here, and I don't believe he would express the same opinions using the same words or opinions you and others have used. The comments here are not even directly ignited by the article he wrote, but already inflamed through centuries of some of the greatest depths of confusion, hurt and anger. Love mixed with hate is confusing to any young person regardless of grades or how well liked or how smart, etc. - (I don't know how you determined those items relevant to a person being capable of understanding love.) Any person not emotionally absorbed in the heat of the issue could clearly see hate in the words I quoted above. I contend that the hate you detest is the same you possess.

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Anitadunnce 4 years, 2 months ago

daybyday: Where do you see hatred in the writing of Greystone, of several others, and of me? I think we have expressed clearly that GLBT's ought NOT to be mistreated, singled out, ridiculed, ostracized, labeled as deviants, etc. The hatred that you see is found only in the position of Potter and yourself. What IS it about you people that you have to comment negatively on, and attempt to control, members of the GLBT group? Let these people ALONE!!! Their lives are NOT your business. NO one seeks out your nasty comments on their lives. It seems that you would have learned something from the fact that your own "born-again" Ted Haggert (sp?) also railed cruelly against gays until it was discovered that the big phony IS gay. Oh, that's right: he went to camp and got "cured". What a farce, there. The man is gayer than gay, and he puts the lie to the claims made by all of you about how his sexuality is a "choice". You really make yourselves look foolish.

It appears that you think that Ryan somehow needs for you to be his "mother-protector" in this. That is a bizarre position. There is nothing here about which he might be "confused". As I stated already, he has a clear sense of his values; fairness to fellow human beings; acceptance of others; the ability to engage in intelligent reflection; and the capability of expressing his views beautifully and concisely in writing.

You wrote the following: "It makes me feel bad for the young man who wrote the original article and wonder how he could be expected to learn anything about love through such comments from those who are supposedly supporters of his article." There is no confusion here, except perhaps your own, because the position espoused by Potter and you is NOT about "love" at all. Please give our youth some credit! They see your hatred and name-calling of gays for what it is, and it is NOT "love". You also err when you claim that we on this thread have called all Christians "hate-mongers". .... nope..... not all Christians..... just the ones who hate GLBT's are hate-mongers.

I am Christian, but I would be so ashamed to be placed in the same category as you and Potter.

Thank God for the young people who have the intelligence and insight to see the ugliness of Potter's position for exactly what it is. You hate-mongers refuse to reflect, accept, or change. Maybe what is required here is for the young people to grow up and to take their rightful place in society, and for those of you who hate and want to control gays just to die off naturally and to let your nasty views die off with you.

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daybyday 4 years, 2 months ago

Anitadunne, you are something else. I have no response to your incredibly presumptous comments (you are not as insightful as you believe yourself to be), or of your interesting visions of how you see it possible for one to move away from hate toward love, except good luck with that.

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blueyes 4 years, 1 month ago

Good grief I am just sick of all the bull @#&% that has been going on about this. Ryan Neece’s article on homosexuality was right on and, very well put the point out about how things are. Way to go Ryan you rock. I am a Gay man! Do you people think that we are pansies? I really have had my fill with all of you quoting the bible. I may not go to a church but believe in a supreme being. I do not care about religion other people attend but I know that we have one God but in different imaginations. I know what I believe in and who I am. That is not the point here I know that I am very happy and my family and coworkers all know I do not hide the fact. What does have my goat here is the verbal BS that has been going back and forth. If you look back in time, homosexuality has been around even before the “birth of Christ “. I do not have to prove a dam thing to any of you in this fact. You have had and will have someone in your family that is gay quit hiding that fact. Keep up your hatred ways, you only hurt your true self. You can bash me all you want I do not care I am a big man and have a true compassion for any one no matter there sex, sexuality, color, race, physical or mental handicap.

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slipknot 4 years, 1 month ago

AnitaDunnce: What is your definition of a Christian? Just to clear the air?

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