Patrick Wayne Germond: Wanting no liberal help

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To the editor:

Let's dance, Rick Hammel. My turn to lead.

So, too much development down river is upsetting you, huh. That's life. A healthy country and a healthy state will grow over time.

I didn't hear any liberals complaining about bio fuel and all the water that it used. Or if it was even worth it? We didn't hear about the pine beetles killing all the trees because of massive over-growth from lack of harvesting.

In fact, after gas prices have passed $4 a gallon because of heavy restrictions and regulations on drilling, you're out of credibility.

We don't want any more liberal help. Now would be a good time for all liberals to take a break while the grown-ups fix things.

Patrick Wayne Germond

Craig

Comments

Sage_Sam 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick- Is it even possible for you to make credible and cogent arguements? You addressed none of the points that Rick brought up in his informed and obviously researched letter to the editor or even made any point that wasn't just mindless rhetoric. Name-calling and partisan talking points should be reserved for the television talking heads that don't know nothing about the issues.

You ain't leading son, you're just stepping on toes and making a fool of yourself while the band plays on.

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rhammel 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick,

You are getting too personal. If you want to argue the issues that I raised, fine. But I didn't discuss biofuels or any other uses of water other than the overuse by the lower basin states. Should the Compact be reopened again, what effect would that have on the upper basin states? That is the issue. You should be concerned about what effect the possible loss of water would affect the development of local industries, such as the budding oil shale resources. The deveopment of oil shale takes massiv amounts of water, If lower basin staes manage to increase their water allocation, I strongy question wheather ther will be enough water remaining to fully develop oil shale.

This is not to say that I support oil shale. I strongly oppose it for other environmental reasons. I am using oil shale as a example of what could happen if the Compact were to be reopened.

Rick

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rhammel 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick,

Accepted. It looks like we will always disagree on most point; so be it. But remember, the states do not have exclusive rights to the water that flows in their streams and rivers. Some of it belongs to the other states and Mexico. And the master keeper of the water is the Bureau of Reclamation, an agency within the US Departpartment of Interior.

Rick

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nikobesti 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick, I'll dance with you any time. However, let's base our arguments on some factual information, shall we? You make several statements just in this short letter that are not supported by logic or facts.

1) You claim that:

"I didn't hear any liberals complaining about bio fuel and all the water that it used."

I think maybe you do too much writing and not enough reading, Patrick. I know of several articles off the top of my head written by "liberal environmentalists" that denounce corn ethanol. Check these out:

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_8328990 http://www.hcn.org/wotr/16292 http://www.hcn.org/wotr/17478

When even High Country News is on record against ethanol, you know your statement is way off base.

2) You claim that:

"We didn't hear about the pine beetles killing all the trees because of massive over-growth from lack of harvesting."

The way I read this, you are inferring that the cause of the pine beetle outbreak is lack of harvesting. Am I correct? If so, please answer this question: How in the heck did our forests get by before humans were around the cut them? Why didn't they all die off due to bark beetles before we started cutting down forests in the west in the 1900s?

3) You claim that:

"In fact, after gas prices have passed $4 a gallon because of heavy restrictions and regulations on drilling, you're out of credibility."

Answer me this: What heavy restrictions and regulations are you referring to? The COGCC rulemaking JUST passed last week. Gas has gone up DESPITE NO CORRESPONDING INCREASE IN RESTRICTIONS. Republicans like to place the blame on "liberal environmentalists" for rising gas prices, but this is nothing more than Rove/Limbaugh talking points with no factual evidence to back it up. This assertion is completely unfounded. Tell me when liberal environmentalists have had any political power besides the last few years.

Additionally, areas available for oil and gas development have INCREASED in the last few years in Colorado, not decreased. The Roan Plateau is now open, and the Vermillion Basin soon will be also. What areas have been put off limits since gas prices have gone up?

After you address those points, address this whopper: There are more drill rigs running now in Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, etc than EVER BEFORE. Colorado broke a record in 2007 for most Applications for Permit to Drill (APDs) than any other year, and we're on track to break that record in 2008. So again Patrick, if domestic supply is increasing, WHY AREN'T PRICES DECREASING?

I do have answers/opinions to these questions, but I'd like you to take a shot first. Then we can start on your other letters. Thanks for dancing. Your turn to lead.

Niko

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cag81625 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick,

Where did you learn so much about forestry and silviculture?

"Insects and Disease: The mountain pine beetle is the most serious insect pest in mature Rocky Mountain lodgepole pine stands, periodically killing most of the large-diameter trees in a stand [14,18,175]. The beetle primarily attacks trees that are large enough to have sufficient phloem thickness to support the insect larvae [12,14,17,18,19]. Generally trees 14 inches (35.6 cm) and greater in diameter attract the mountain pine beetle, with smaller trees being attacked after these larger trees are killed [12,14]. Infestations continue until the phloem thickness of live trees is no longer sufficient as a food source. Trees smaller than 6 inches (15.2 cm) in diameter are rarely killed [14]. "

Source: http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/pinconl/all.html

Comparing the pine beetle issues in the N. Rockies lodgepole forests to the issues that affected logging the northwests forests are apples and oranges.

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nikobesti 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick: I'm not saying environmentalists don't hold up timber harvests, and I'm not even saying I agree with them. I think harvest is warranted in some situations. What I am saying is that your point is off base pinning the beetle problem on lack of harvest. I would agree that a clear-cut forest won't have any bark beetles, and that the dead timber should be used in some situations. However, forests have been healthy before humans starting cutting a lot of trees. There's no logic to your radical argument. There are many other more important factors (Hint: It starts with "F" and has an "I" and "R" and "E" in it. You might have heard of it even though your letters never mention it except for that it's used by hippies to light a bong.)

Still waiting for your response about how high energy prices are Dem's fault. This is the theme of every one of your letters. Can you flesh that out for us? Also very curious about what you think about the supply and demand issues I raised. You continually contend that our problems will go away (or at least get better) with more domestic drilling. Can you use some factual information to show how that will happen?

I appreciate your opinions and like that people are thinking about these issues. If you want to frame a legitimate argument, you shouldn't just repeat what you hear without providing some critical thought and analysis.

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cag81625 6 years, 3 months ago

Patrick,

As far as the lodgepole and the beetles go, cutting and burning are good things. First off, many areas are being cut, but one of the biggest bottlenecks is the dearth of mills. That is slowly changing. There is a new mill (I'm told) being built to process dead lodgepole in Kremmling as we speak. Many folks are trying to build a market for the "blue stain" wood of beetle killed trees (it is pretty cool stuff) to make it more economical to cut and mill. Alternatively, lodgepole is a fire-dependent species and fire is actually necessary to open up their cones so the seeds can be released. Fire will have to occur over many acres if the lodgepole forests are to return someday. But, no matter what, a whole state's worth of lodgepole cannot be cut before nature does what it will do.

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grannyrett 6 years, 3 months ago

The Indians would burn the brush. It kept the forest clean, as well as keeping the bugs in control. Fire has been considered an enemy for so long that our forests have become overgrown and now, any fire will be a major catrostrophic. The forest service and BLM has done this country a great disservice in not allowing cutting and clearing of the forests. Let's hope that after the beetles have killed off much of the forests of this state that they will have learned how to manage better.

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irishbrat 6 years, 3 months ago

However, I was once told that fire is good for the forest- So I looked it up-this is a clip from an encyclopedia:

"Some species of pines, e.g. Bishop Pine, need fire to regenerate and their populations slowly decline under fire suppression regimes"

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